Brent,

Thanks again for your good comments.  You make me think!

 

I think you're probably right that "covenant" in our society is associated more with homeowner associations than the church.  And we might want to think carefully about how such associations are different than the Christian community as covenant.

 

Even in a homeowners association, however, "covenant" carries the connotation that we are somehow accountable to each other.  Homeowners are not entirely independent.  They have obligations to fellow homeowners.

 

In my homeowners association, for instance, we can't leave piles of grass on our lawns for days on end.  We can't paint our houses hot pink and purple colors.

 

Sometimes these rules feel stifling.  They limit my creativity!:)  But when I see some things that homeowners do who are not a part of an association--park broken down cars on their lawns for months at a time, paint their houses gawd-awful colors, stick twenty-seven antennas from their roofs, etc.--I realize that I like being a part of a homeowners association.  The advantages outweight the disadvantages.

 

I think this may work in the Christian community as well.  There are some things I don't do--e.g., drink alcohol--that are not inherently evil things to do.  I don't do them, because as part of a covenant I want to help others who may struggle with overcoming the detrimental aspects of these activities.  For instance, some people struggle with alcoholism.  This is part of what I think I should do as a member of this covenant community.  I don't go around harping on people who do drink alcohol.  But I do think others in my covenant community need to be careful about their practices, because of how these practices might influence others.

 

Thanks again for helping me to think!

 

Tom

 

 

 

 

The Church as Christ's Covenant Community.
In thinking about this definition I like it, but I wonder how it translates to those who do not have a deep Christian vocabulary.
It seems that in the last few years there is much more discussion about what the church is.  Part of this seems to reflect how the church is much more than simply a good idea, but central to what it means to be Christian.  Christianity is much bigger than simply "Jesus and me."

Covenant- a word less associated with marriage but more with homeowners associations (which is a bit sad). It seems that when we covenant together, it is a matter of commitment that we will journey together-- we hold each other accountable. 

Like it says in Romans 12:15.  "Where we rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn."  Why is it so hard to journey together??  Is it simply we are too busy?  Is it that we do not like to be vulnerable to each other?

As Pastor Kent was speaking I was thinking that the church must continually be redefined as more than a space but being invited into the people of God.  A people whom are in the process of being healed from selfish tendencies.  I have heard it said that the church is best understood as a hospital rather than a museum.

The church is what God intended for the fulness of life.

Your thoughts?
Brent

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brent,

 

 

 

One aspect of the "continuing debt of love" that you didn't mention is that, yes God loved us while we were sinners, but even now God continues to love us. For me his continuing love is more compelling to me.  It's something I am aware of at every turn.  My imperfection in contrast to his love causes me to keep reaching for him. 

 

 

 

Ronda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Some thoughts.
We are a country that is racked in debt, because we have believed in credit.
But debt is not all bad.  Financial Wizards will tell you there is good debt and bad debt.
Good debt: Taking out loans for education.  Bad debt: Buying a diamond ring.
Good debt: Stop renting and buying a home (you can afford).  Bad debt:  Splurging at Best Buy.
Romans 13:8 notes that there is only one debt which should consume us.  The continuing debt to love one another.

Some thoughts.
1) I notice that I cannot pay down this debt.  There never is a time when I get the "love deed" from the church affirming I no longer need to love.

2) We are in this love debt, because God loved us as sinners and offers through his Son Jesus Chrsit forgiveness.  A "debt" we could never repay.

3) In response to being forgiven by God we live that forgiveness by loving God and others.  This is one truth from the parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

4) This debt to love one another should be joyfully given.  As one who has been forgiven, love for God and neighbor should not be seen as an dreaded chore.

 

So what does it look like for you?

Notice in Romans 13: 9-10  love is both not doing some things that are harmful and actively doing other things that build each other up.
This sounds so easy, why is it so hard?  Why are some people so hard to love?  Sometimes it is hard even to love ourselves.

Another strain that Pastor rightly addressed, we must read Romans 13:8 carefully.  We should not be in debt financially speaking.  While most of us are not independently wealthy, we as Christians should seek to remove bad finanical debts.  This becomes an issue of stewardship.  This is a chief way we honor God with our money, by not giving into the gods of materialism or consumerism.  It is tough, but God can help us.

 Great comments and questions, Brent!
 
I was thinking about the notion of sincere and insincere love too.  I agree with you that there isn't any such thing as insincere love.   Insincere love is an oxymoron.
 
Perhaps what Paul had in mind was to warn us against the idea of doing something helpful but with the wrong motives.  Perhaps Paul is saying that we not only do good to others, but we also do good for the right reasons.
 
In my everyday life, this verse reminds me to evaluate my motives on a frequent basis.  I'm probably like many people: I sometimes find myself acting with wrong motivations.  I want to do better!  I want to follow God's call always to love sincerely (i.e., do what is good, and with right motives).
 
Thanks for pushing us to think, Brent!
 
Tom
 
 
Thomas Jay Oord, Ph.D.

 "So how do we love sincerely?  I began to wonder if there is such a thing as "insincere love?"  Part of the difficulty is not only giving but receiving love?  Many times because we have not been loved well, we have a hard time loving ourselves and thus giving or receiving love.

Something I noticed yesterday is that as Pastor was preaching he moved from questions about love to really filling out what this means.
We are loving (others and God) when we "hate what is evil and cling to what is good."  That sounds so right and yet honestly I wonder if we do not water it down to "tolerating or rationalizing the evil and just knowing the good."   I am reminded of James 4:17 "Anyone who knows the good she or he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."  Yikes.  What it says to me is that love is more than simply not doing bad things but proactively responding to God's call to love others.

So what things are the evils in your life? Do you really hate them? What things are the good?  What does it look like to cling to them?

Pastor concluded by saying that really loving God and others means that we are to daily offer ourselves as a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1-2).  While God's love comes to us freely, we can only truly accept God's love by yielding our entire lives to God.

I am excited to hear your responses to these questions and others that came to you.

By God's grace may we keep living and embodying God's Word.

Grace,
Brent